Welcome back to The Best & The Brightest. I’m Abby Livingston.

Tonight, my partner John Heilemann chats with Doug Emhoff about the vice president’s political evolution, his convention prep, and what it’s like to be the first second gentleman. (They also go full Gen X and discuss Kurt Cobain and Eddie Vedder.) Emhoff also elaborated on how he keeps his cool amid Laura Loomer’s gutter insults toward the V.P.

But first…. My reporting on Kirsten Gillibrand’s big idea…

Running any of the campaign committees, of course, is the most thankless task in politics. It involves endless fundraising and tough decisions directly impacting colleagues. Cycle after cycle, however, members line up for the gallows because it plants the seed for a future power base within the caucus. It’s no coincidence that two of the most highly regarded former Democratic chairs, Chuck Schumer and Patty Murray, wield enormous influence in Washington, or that former two-term N.R.S.C. chair John Cornyn is a contender to succeed Mitch McConnell (another former chair) next year.

Gillibrand has donor networks in both California (including D.S.C.C. donor and former roomie Connie Britton) and her native New York, Axios points out, and she has the strongest out-of-state Democratic fundraising operation in Texas, save for Nancy Pelosi’s. Moreover, Gillibrand knows how to navigate the choppy seas that come with a tight race. To wit: Her 2006 upset win as an Upstate New York House challenger is D.C.C.C. lore for its strategy and ruthlessness.

Back in late 2012, Gillibrand was a contender for D.S.C.C chair but instead focused on building a presidential campaign, which culminated in 2020 with disappointing results. That said, a campaign committee is a markedly different operation, and Gillibrand has shown an awareness of party-building outside her own immediate interests—e.g., for over a decade, she’s often been the first member of Congress to donate to an up-and-coming, down-ballot female Democratic candidate, via her Off the Sidelines leadership PAC. She also has a productive relationship with Schumer, who will be the key decision-maker on this post.

Are donors still mad about her perceived opportunistic defenestration of Al Franken during the #MeToo era? A majority of Democratic senators indeed called on the Minnesota senator to resign, including current D.S.C.C. chair Gary Peters, Schumer (who moved early to put the screws to Franken behind the scenes), current majority whip Dick Durbin, and then-senator Kamala Harris. But Gillibrand ran ahead of the pack, and for this, Franken supporters concentrated their outrage on her. To be sure, this was seven years ago, so some of the ire may have dissipated.

As for the job itself, the 2026 map is better for Democrats than this year’s (almost any map would be…). At first blush, only a half-dozen seats up next cycle—three held by Democratic senators (Jon Ossoff, Jeanne Shaheen, Peters) and another three by Republicans (John Cornyn, Susan Collins, Thom Tillis)—could reasonably be considered competitive. The conventional wisdom about this Senate map, and the 2026 cycle more generally, is that whichever side loses the White House in November will have the upper hand in the midterms.

And now, on to John and Doug…

In this candid and lightly edited interview, which has been excerpted from today’s full episode of Impolitic With John Heilemann, we discussed his trajectory from uber-lawyer to political super-spouse, the budding somethingship between Donald Trump and Laura Loomer, the feminism of Pearl Jam and Nirvana, and much more…

Doug Emhoff: I knew I had to really dig deep. Of course, prior to [Biden dropping out of the race], I was preparing to maybe speak, and maybe have some role introducing [Kamala]. Then when she got to the top of the ticket, they said, Well, now you have a bigger role. And then they told me that I was going on primetime Tuesday night with the Obamas. I was like, You mean Michelle and Barack Obama?

And you’re a pretty competitive guy, so you’re like, I’m going to kick both their asses…

I didn’t come at it that way. I thought, What can I say about her that only I could say? We only had four-ish days to get it ready and locked in. And I was weirdly not super nervous, at least until I walked down into the scrum behind the stage… I peeked out to see 20,000 people cheering.

Really, you’re there as a window into your wife, the nominee. And right now, if you look at the polling, people who haven’t decided say, We need to know more about her. I’m curious about the challenge that presents.

We thought a lot about how to bust through the caricature of her. There was such a false view of her that was out there. So part of it is, like, Here’s the Kamala Harris that I know—the joyful warrior. She’s a mother to the kids, she’s a massive part of our family, she’s always been there for us, she’s going to be there for you. She’s been in the Oval Office, she’s been on the world stage. She’s ready to lead on day one, and she’s a badass. I had to get all that out in 12 short minutes, and a little bit about myself, too.

You guys met in 2013 and got married in 2014. How do you see her growth in terms of her conception of leadership, and how she thinks about the country and important issues? Talk about your 10 years of seeing her mature as a leader.

When I met her, she was first-term attorney general [of California]. She went on to have another term as attorney general, then four years in the Senate, then almost four years as vice president, and now she’s the nominee for President of the United States. Just by definition, you’re going to evolve as a leader—you’re going to evolve with experience, and you’re going to evolve because the circumstances in the country evolve. She’s putting out policies that she thinks are in the best interest of all of us, not like the other guy.

I’ve always seen her as this incredible leader, first-rate intellect, and first-rate public servant. But stepping into the breach like she did on July 21st, when President Biden decided to cease his campaign, she just became this ultra version of herself. Of course, you had the debate, where the expectations were high, and there’s no question she exposed that guy onstage. She’d been kind of waiting for this moment, and she exceeded it.

In D.C., political perceptions are filtered through the media for good and ill. Is it gratifying to see the world catch up with what you’ve always seen?

It’s a testament to her, her character and diligence. All this chattering-class bullshit and the media never affected her. It never got her down. She just kept going, and that’s why you’re seeing her be what she is right now.

Right up until she got the call from Joe Biden, I was busy as a lawyer and I was loving it. When she got that call, that was the last day I ever practiced law, even though I didn’t know it at the time. And when they won, I asked myself, how am I going to find meaning in this role as second gentlemen. I give a lot of credit to Kamala. She said, Well, this is great news. You have this opportunity to lean in on some substantive issues.

I was a very well-known, very dogged, gnarly lawyer. I like to compete, so I thought, How do I bring that Big Law mentality to what could be a ceremonial role? It’s okay to step away from your career and support someone who’s going to be the first woman vice president, and being the first Jew ever to be one of the four—I didn’t realize how big of a deal that would be. She was the one who said, Look, there’s a lot of antisemitism and hate out there, this could be something you’re almost compelled to do.

To have Laura Loomer calling your wife a drug-addicted prostitute, saying she had so many abortions, she’s ruined her uterus… I would find it impossible to keep my cool in that situation. How do you keep yours, if you do?

You just have to. You can’t function in this role if you don’t.

Dude, you’re not superhuman.

I’m not. But look, those things are obviously not true and ridiculous and disgusting, but it’s also a distraction. You’ve got to let it bounce off you because we have to stay disciplined and focused on the task at hand, which is winning this election. If we’re taking time out of our mental space to focus on the ridiculous stuff people are saying, it takes us away from what they’re really trying to do, which is Dobbs and Project 2025 and this extremist view of America that so few of us want.

What does it say about Donald Trump—and is it disqualifying—that he keeps Loomer close?

Look, Donald Trump is unfit for office by any definition. Donald Trump was the worst president in the history of this country. His lies and gaslighting around Covid literally killed hundreds of thousands of people in this country. He fomented an insurrection when he lost the election in 2020 by a lot. He tried to overthrow the government and is still lying about it to this day. He got down on his knees to Putin and Xi and [Kim Jong Un]. He’s a laughingstock, he’s a disgrace. He’s unfit for any job, let alone being president of the United States. So that’s what we should be focused on, not whom he happens to be traveling with.

We’ve just had a second assassination attempt on Trump. No one thinks it’s anything but unacceptable, deplorable. Everyone condemns it. But there’s an idea that he has some responsibility for inciting the climate in which these kinds of things are happening. Do you agree with that?

Well, I agree with that. But there’s no room for political violence, it’s unacceptable. We need to resolve our differences at the ballot box and in the public square, and get back to the concept that we’re all Americans. It’s what Kamala said on the debate stage: that we have much more in common than what divides us. I want us to get back to a point where we’re just debating ideas, and we need to have a strong Republican Party that’s about discussing policy issues, the rule of law, democracy, and who we are as Americans.

They were like the Beatles and Stones to me. I had the honor of getting to meet Eddie Vedder a few times. I got to see them in Philadelphia just a week or so ago. I’ll never forget where I was when I heard the news Kurt Cobain died—I was driving in downtown L.A. either to or from court, and I had an out-of-body experience in the car, and it’s something I still think about. It’s funny, Courtney Love was a mom at the kids’ school for a while, and normally I’m so confident, but the few times I had the nerve to talk to her, I was always like, Holy shit.

Has there ever been a cooler woman in rock than Courtney Love?

I mean, she’s up there, man.

One thing that gets overlooked is that the feminism of those bands was profound. Eddie Vedder and Kurt Cobain, these guys were outspoken feminists at a time when that was not a cool thing to be in rock and roll. Coming up in this era, and being worshipful of those bands, shaped how I thought about women in a pretty profound way. And I wonder if that’s true for you, too—whether your feminism was shaped by this cultural milieu that we both grew up in.

Part of it, I think, is that we didn’t have social media back then. We had to be with each other. We were in bars together, we were going to shows together, we were calling each other up on the phone. We didn’t hide behind computers and iPhones, saying whatever the hell we wanted to say. If you had something to say, you literally had to say it to somebody’s face. Everyone was trying to make it in L.A. at the time. My ex, Kerstin, was working her way up in show business, I was working my way up as a lawyer. Then we all started having kids. And for all of us, there was no question our spouses were going to work. We were going to support them, they were going to support us.

That kind of matter-of-fact feminism, not just performative, seems like a hallmark of our generation. I wonder if you think that kind of explains why your relationship with the maybe-soon-to-be president has created a certain resonance with voters.

Most of my friends our age, we’re all the same in terms of being supportive. When a woman succeeds, some dude somewhere isn’t failing. It’s not a zero-sum game. In fact, it lifts us all up.

I don’t want to pretend like it was inexorable and like magic, or that there weren’t structural impediments and barriers, but our generation thought that this was natural—and with effort, inevitable. There’s a sense of that in how Kamala presents herself as a candidate. It feels very modern and hopeful and optimistic, without being Panglossian.

Yes, it’s like, I’m the best one for the job, I stepped up and put myself out there. That’s why you should vote for me. Not for any other reason.