And now the main event...

The New York Knicks have been among the NBA’s worst teams since Jim Dolan took over operational control more than a quarter century ago—a dark passage that featured the Isiah Thomas misadventure, the ill-advised Larry Brown season, the Phil Jackson cameo, the Durant tease, and other notable moments of pique and infamy. A couple of years ago, the franchise finally started showing signs of legitimate contention, culminating in this year’s explosive and surprising title run. On Saturday, the Knicks won their first championship since 1973. Afterward, legions of fans who made the trip toasted them in the hinterlands of San Antonio.

How did Dolan’s Knicks go from being a patsy to world champions in six years? Following the team’s historic Game 5 closeout on Saturday night, I put that question to voice of the Knicks Mike Breen, who worked the Finals as ABC’s play-by-play man, and ESPN senior NBA reporter Brian Windhorst. You can listen tomorrow morning on the Varsity podcast. For those who can’t wait, here’s a lightly edited transcript of our conversation.

John Ourand: I’m a big believer that a team’s culture emanates from the owner. There’s a reason why Dan Snyder’s Commanders never won. There’s also a reason why Jerry Jones’s Cowboys haven’t won more than a handful of playoff games since the mid 1990s. Jim Dolan’s Knicks seemed to fall into that category.

Brian Windhorst: In 2019, the Knicks pretty much hit rock bottom. They thought that they were going to get Kevin Durant in free agency and cleared out a whole bunch of cap space to try to sign him and Kyrie Irving. But they went over to Brooklyn. At one point, Durant gave an interview where he basically said the Knicks were uncool. Not that the Knicks ever had a cool mentality, but the idea that it would be more fashionable to be a Brooklyn Net than a New York Knick was probably rock bottom.

What I’m particularly interested in is the period post-2019. How was Dolan able to change the culture of the team?

Windhorst: During that 2019-20 season, he replaced Steve Mills as his franchise leader of basketball operations, and he tried to find somebody who could deliver players, because the Knick flag was not getting it done. He settled on the duo of Leon Rose and William "Worldwide Wes” Wesley. They essentially built CAA Basketball together. Leon Rose basically started to recruit his own clients, and at first it looked like favoritism. But what has now become clear is that it wasn’t favoritism, it was intelligence. They also hired Tom Thibodeau to be the coach, which was viewed as another favoritism/cronyism move. But they actually knew that the players that they were acquiring were perfect Tom Thibodeau players, and it ended up turning the team around.

How did the Knicks go from second fiddle to the Nets to this season’s title run?

Windhorst: Dolan did two things this last offseason that were risky but turned out to be really smart. One, he basically was the impetus for firing Thibodeau, who was Leon Rose’s longtime friend. I’m sure that was very painful for Leon. And then the second thing is they didn’t trade for Giannis Antetokounmpo. Dolan has talked about how in the past he’d made terrible mistakes by getting distracted and chasing the shiny object. But he said no to Giannis. He believed in this team and thought that they needed to change the coach, not change the roster. I don’t know if it’s because Dolan is older and smarter and wiser or if it just worked out for him this time.

One more Jim Dolan question—I find him to be among the most fascinating characters. In terms of other NBA owners, would you say that Dolan is more hands-on than most?

Windhorst: I don’t think Dolan’s level of involvement is in the top 1 percent or 5 percent or whatever. The problem is that Dolan’s judgment has often been horrendous. But his big overarching decisions were a cornerstone of this Knicks team getting this championship this year. He absolutely deserves credit for getting several vital decisions right that he could have massively screwed up. His particular judgment on this team in this season was pristine. And actually his leadership on how he wanted this season to go was excellent and a strong contributing factor that it went the way that it did.

When did you notice a culture change with the Knicks?

Mike Breen: Cultures certainly vary from organization to organization, but so much of it revolves around winning. You can have great culture, but if you’re not winning, it doesn’t really mean a heck of a lot. There were some years when the Knicks were one of the worst teams in the NBA—and they had good chemistry. But they just didn’t have the talent. And it changed really when Leon Rose came in and his first hire was Tom Thibodeau.

You are so identified with the New York Knicks for good reason: You’ve been calling their games locally for 35 years. As the clock wound down for Game 5, did you get emotional?

Breen: I did. The game went down to the final seconds, which is actually helpful as a broadcaster—there were still many big shots and the Spurs were still capable of winning. But I’d be lying if I said it didn’t mean something to me. Of course it did. I’ve been a Knick fan since I was about 7 years old. I’ve called their games for more than half my life. So you want to see them finally win one, like any fan.

Paint the picture for me—you’re in San Antonio and the clock hits zero.

Breen: I had a couple of thoughts in my head of what I wanted to say. One of them, the way I phrased it, was “Go ahead and cry.” Over the last couple of years, as the Knicks really became a legitimate championship contender, anytime you talk to Knick fans, one of the first things they say is that if they ever win it all, I’m going to cry. So I thought that would be an appropriate thing to put in there, because I like sometimes to address the fan base when you do the final call.

Mike, as you said, you’ve called Knicks games for more than half your life. Do you see a point in the future when you’re going to cut back?

Breen: For a long time, between ESPN and the Knicks, I was doing, some years, as many as 110 games during the course of the season—playoffs and regular season—and I’ve cut it back a little bit. But I’m going to have to cut it back a little bit more. Clearly, I still love it so much, and there’s nothing better than doing the big national games.

Madison Square Garden is like a second home to me. Calling games there for the local team, it’s a wonderful thing. And if you ask any national broadcaster who’s had a chance to go and do some local telecasts as well, there’s something so wonderful about being around a team and watching how they develop on a day-in and day-out basis, you really get to know the team and the personalities, and that makes you a better broadcaster. So, yes, I might cut back soon, but I still love it too much. As long as the people at ESPN and MSG still want to hear me yapping away, I’m good with that.

On Fox and Roku: “Wait a second. Are you telling me that Fox is now looking to adjust its distribution strategy and embrace new technologies that provide large reach on an established digital platform? And this comes after Fox persuaded the federal government to scrutinize the NFL for what can only be fairly described as the league’s move to adjust its media distribution strategy in the midst of changing consumption habits/new technologies? It will be very interesting to see what, if anything, the various D.C. entities and media outlets (looking at you NY Post, Fox News, and OutKick) have to say about this proposed acquisition and whether it makes sense for consumers.” —A sports business executive

On World Cup pessimists: “We should consider a national day of mourning for all the people (and publications) that spent the run-up to the World Cup strangely obsessed with telling everyone what a disaster it was going to be. Sadly for them, the early story of the World Cup is stadiums filled with people from all over the world, cities joyfully taken over by the party, and record TV ratings. And that was all before the Knicks clinched. Now look for the World Cup to take off even more. Anyway, thoughts and prayers to all our friends whose worst nightmares are coming true: The World Cup has started off like a runaway success. I’m sure they will look back and question their objectivity and strive to be less agenda-driven going forward.” —A media executive

On the UFC at the White House: “It says everything that the totality of your report from the UFC event at the White House was a flat-out name check and nothing about the… ahem… matches themselves. Was it the heat and humidity that required a shower upon the return home, or did you just feel like you had to take a shower?” —A Varsity subscriber

On Marchand and sancerre: “In your last issue, you printed a comment from a Varsity subscriber who is getting tired of your Marchand jokes. He does not speak for the majority. Crisp, not tart!!” —A senior Paramount executive

Errata: “The NFL’s HQ is on Park Ave., not Fifth Ave. Tell me you’re from D.C. without telling me that you’re from D.C.” —A streaming executive

See you Thursday,
John

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