And now, here’s John and James…

The precise moment that James Talarico emerged as a figure of fascination among the national political cognoscenti can be pinpointed to July 18, when an episode of The Joe Rogan Experience featuring Talarico dropped on YouTube and throughout the podcast universe. Over the course of two hours and 36 minutes, Talarico, a 36-year-old Democratic Texas state legislator and aspiring pastor currently enrolled in Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary, uncorked a tour de force performance that, by the end of the show, had Rogan exhorting him to run for president—and more than a few members of the party’s smart set whispering similar sentiments.

All this was before Talarico and more than 50 of his Democratic colleagues fled Texas to delay a vote on the new congressional map put forward by Governor Greg Abbott at Donald Trump’s behest, designed to deliver Republicans five new U.S. House seats in next year’s midterms—setting off a national firestorm over redistricting, spurring California Governor Gavin Newsom to strike back with a proposed gerrymander of his own, and shining the national media spotlight all the more brightly on Talarico (who logged 25 interviews in the first 24 hours of his party’s two-week quorum break, with countless more to follow).

When Talarico and I chatted for the most recent episode of my Impolitic podcast, it was the morning after the Texas House had voted to adopt the rejiggered map, and Lone Star State Democrats were already formulating legal challenges to thwart it. Talarico and I talked about why he believes, whether or not the new district lines are ultimately implemented, the walkout achieved something important by nationalizing the issue and galvanizing Democrats from coast to coast. But we also discussed more personal matters: the possibility that Talarico will enter his state’s Democratic primary to choose a challenger for G.O.P. Senator John Cornyn (or Texas A.G. Ken Paxton, who is trying to primary Cornyn from the right and is leading him in the polls) next year; the role his devout Christianity plays in informing his progressivism; and the need for his party to start “flipping tables” (like Jesus in the temple) to save American democracy. As always, this excerpt of our conversation has been edited for clarity and condensed for space, but you can listen to the whole thing here.

John Heilemann: The recent floor debate over the new map was very long, despite the fact that the outcome was a foregone conclusion. What was it like to take part in it and witness that piece of history firsthand?

James Talarico: That was probably one of the most tense floor debates that I’ve been a part of because this is so personal. By passing these rigged maps, [Republicans] are literally robbing our constituents of their ability to elect the candidates of their choice, to have a say in this democracy of ours, and they are tearing apart historic Black and brown communities all over the state to try to steal these five seats. It was particularly painful to hear Chairman Todd Hunter [who openly admitted that the redistricting was a purely partisan political exercise]. This map he drew is going to draw some of my constituents in Central Texas into a district that goes all the way to the Texas coast. It’s ludicrous that these different communities could have the same member of Congress. They’re as different as they could possibly be. It’s heartbreaking, and it was a hard day on the floor.

When you and your colleagues left the state two weeks ago to deny Republicans a quorum, what were your expectations? What was the best-case scenario for what you thought you might accomplish?

This was 57 Texas House Democrats. The media has kind of treated us as one singular entity, but we are all individual elected officials, from very different districts, with very different politics and interests. So just the fact that we were able to keep this group together and pull this off in secret is a logistical feat that I don’t think people fully appreciate.

Quorum breaks are rare. They’re really only reserved for the most egregious abuses of power by the majority. There’s a lot of power in this kind of direct action. I know they can’t last forever, even though expectations can rise among your own supporters that this is somehow a sustainable tactic to use over the long run. But I will say I was shocked at how successful this quorum break was—in particular, in capturing the attention of the country, in pushing blue states to respond. Gavin Newsom might have [pursued his redistricting countermeasure in California] anyway, but before we broke quorum, he didn’t have the support within his legislature. And I think that changed because of the momentum we sparked.

When you were up in Chicago, you took to the pulpit one Sunday at Trinity United Church of Christ on the South Side—Barack Obama’s parish—and delivered a sermon where you talked about Jesus driving the money-changers out of the temple and compared that situation to this political moment. “To those who love democracy,” you said, “It’s time to start flipping tables.” Talk to me about what that means.

These aren’t just strategic or political questions; they are moral and ethical questions. As a Christian, I’m trying to figure out what love demands at a moment like this. And love is not always polite and amiable. Sometimes love is ferocious and aggressive. That’s the kind of love we have to have at this moment in our history. Sometimes love needs to be disruptive—like a quorum break, or a walkout, or mid-decade redistricting in a state like California to respond to what’s happening in Texas. I think Democrats need to be more comfortable with that kind of aggressive posture while still maintaining the moral clarity and principles that motivate us.

What other forms of “table-flipping” should Democrats consider?

Being able to draw attention to the abuses of power is probably more important than it’s ever been—so, not being afraid to protest. When it comes to policies, given what’s happening in our nation’s capital, passing D.C. statehood and offering statehood to Puerto Rico should be at the top of the agenda next time Democrats have a majority in Congress. Taking actions to reform the Supreme Court. Taking much more aggressive actions to curb the influence of big money in our politics—all of that has to be on the table if we’re going to fix the system itself, which I think Americans are demanding now. Of course they want to see progress on housing and healthcare and education, but I think they’re waking up to the fact that if you don’t fix the system itself, you’re never going to see progress on those issues.

On Joe Rogan’s podcast, you talked about how, for all of the attention paid to age as a political liability for Joe Biden in 2024, a bigger problem was his ego—his belief that only he could beat Trump and his refusal to pass the torch to the next generation of leaders. How much blame do you think Biden deserves for the Democratic Party’s feeble standing today with voters and its difficulties in countering Trump and MAGA?

In these polls that show the public disapproves of the Democratic Party, the numbers of those who disapprove include a lot of Democrats. And I would count myself among those people who think that our party has failed to meet the moment—and not just this particular moment in 2025, but really the last 10 years. It feels like the Democratic Party is stuck in a different time in American politics and doesn’t fully appreciate the threat we’re facing.

A party is defined by its most prominent leaders, and we Democrats have suffered from not putting forward younger, more dynamic leaders who can speak to the country. I think that’s going to change. Everybody talks about how the Democratic Party is out in the wilderness. In every major faith tradition, including mine, the wilderness is a place where you can find out new things about yourself, about the world. It’s where new ideas come forth, where new leaders come forth. It’s a time of experimentation and innovation. So we should embrace this time in the wilderness. This is where our party is going to get reborn, and the old Democratic Party is going to fall away.

As Jon Stewart pointed out, Democrats were telling voters the election had existential stakes and at the same time sticking with an 81-year-old nominee—which, on its face, seemed kinda inconsistent.

I think Joe Biden is a good man. He’s one of the most faithful presidents in modern history and incredibly successful legislatively. But the job of a leader, especially the president, is a lot more than passing legislation. It requires the person holding the office to tell a story about who we are as a country, who we are as a people, where we’ve been and where we’re going, and how to think about the current moment and our responsibilities to each other and to history. I don’t think President Biden was really up to that part of the job, and it’s maybe the most important part. If you’re not able to communicate and connect with the people you’re serving, then you can’t lead, and I think we discount that part of the job at our own peril.

A poll just came out that has you within striking distance of Colin Allred, the former Democratic congressman who fell a few points short of beating Ted Cruz last year and is the frontrunner, for the moment, to take on John Cornyn or Ken Paxton in next year’s Texas Senate race. There’s talk you might get in that race. Will you?

I am looking at that Senate seat. Obviously, this special session and the quorum break took up most of my attention and my focus, and that’ll be the case until this special session ends, hopefully within the next week or so. But once I’m past this, I am going to look at that race seriously and think about if it’s right for me, and, more importantly, right for the state.

And listen, people shouldn’t sleep on Texas [as a potential Democratic Senate pickup]. I get that our state has broken people’s hearts. It’s broken my heart, too. But Texas is a lot more competitive than people realize. I think a lot of people nationally, especially in the media, like to think of Texas as a mirror of California: the ultimate red state. But Texas is really much more of a pink state. Remember, Biden came within five points of beating Donald Trump here in 2020. And, honestly, for the Democratic Party, winning Texas is no longer a nice-to-have; it’s a need-to-have if you take these reapportionment numbers seriously in 2030. Unless people have a secret plan to win Florida, the Democrats better start thinking about how we make progress in Texas.

One last question on the new Texas map, which seems to be premised on GOP congressional candidates doing as well with Latino voters as Trump did last year. But that’s no sure thing. Is it possible that, next November, Republicans might look back and say, Man, we really shouldn’t have messed with our map?

That’s very possible. Obviously, it doesn’t excuse what’s happening here. But there’s a term for what happens when you get too greedy and end up drawing your districts a little too thin: “dummymandering.” They’ve tried their best to divide communities of color, to dilute the power of Latinos in our elections. But it’s a fast-growing population, and it’s one that is turning against this Republican extremism. Latinos in Texas, along with all Texans, are disturbed by some of this extremism on immigration, separating families, deporting hardworking community members to countries they’ve never been to before.

But I also think people are disillusioned with the president’s record on the economy. I know a lot of Tejanos that voted for Donald Trump. They hated everything about him and his other policy beliefs, but they thought he could lower prices. The fact that he’s done the opposite and made inflation worse, I think has turned a lot of Texans, including a lot of Tejanos, against him. And I think that’s going to show up at the ballot box next year.

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